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Questions

posted Dec 26, 2012 16:19:03 by SteveLieb
1) p86 (table of ENC values for armor) vs p88 "Armor Penalty to SR" section.
P86 says a full suit of plated mail is an 8SR penalty, but the formula and example given in the text p88 says that a full suit of plated mail is 6 enc per location * 7 locs = 42/5 (rounded up) = 9 SR penalty?

2) To me the text on describing the 'devotional pool' is a little vague; so as I understand it a theist
- CANNOT power miracles with anything BUT the MP in the devotional pool? So essentially they are hard-capped as to the number of miracles they can exhort by their POW (or a fraction thereof, depending on rank in the cult)
- CAN (depending on circumstances, I'm thinking specifically of various allied Gloranthan Lightbringer cults) be laymembers/initiates of multiple cults - this would mean a SEPARATE devotional pool for each, which can then each power miracles separately (but the sum total of all devotional pools can't > POW)
- cast spells at a base intensity/magnitude of their Devotion/10 for 1 magic point 'spend' out of the devotional pool.
- I presume this pool is not relevant to spirit combat?

3) Consecrate on p 267 vs example on 278.
The spell says you can 'embed or bind miracles to the area' - in the example, however, the Priestess Consecrates Anathaym's breastplate with Shield. So a theist can Consecrate an OBJECT? The spell description is pretty clear that it just means Consecration of GROUND.

4) As far as I can tell for spirit-creatures, (if one is building an encounter, for example) the GM is supposed to SELECT the intensity level of the creature, and generate its POW from there. That seems a little deterministic to me, if one is generating random encounters, etc.? Does the discussion of 'frequency of spirits' apply to specific types, ie are there the same distribution of wraiths intensity 0 vs 1 vs 2, etc as other spirits? Are there intensity 6 wraiths? The Animism section says a shaman can go 'searching' on the spirit plane for a spirit they want, but as I read it there's little description of how such a search would be handled?

Thanks, I'm sure I'll have more questions, but these are the first few.
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18 replies
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SteveLieb said Dec 26, 2012 16:32:39
Ah, here's another.
As long as the parrying article is = or > size of the attacking weapon, the full damage of the attack is parried (on a normal successful parry vs normal attack).

This had me pondering - let's say you have a halfling with a dagger, who is somehow magically boosted in STR to 60. His damage bonus is now 2d6, and could technically (with a normal hit, and some luck) do 17 points of damage with a dagger....yet someone with a buckler could parry and all the damage is blocked with no damage/consequence to the parrying device?

(Technically - using passive coverage over one's head and/or chest, for example - that means any shield could stop an unlimited number of bullets from, say, a .50 cal...?)

Edge case, certainly, but that result seems...odd. It seems like there should be some sort of mechanic to recognize that it's not just about the size of the weapon vs size of the shield/parrying weapon...Or am I misunderstanding something?
[Last edited Dec 26, 2012 16:59:26]
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SteveLieb said Dec 26, 2012 16:55:51
Ah, another: pg 143 table says that if both attacker and defender fail or fumble, there's no result. That seems odd?
I guess I'd expect that if one of them fumbles, and the other one merely fails that's still a level of success. Since they FAILED, there's no actual DAMAGE applied by the weapon, but a special effect could still be selected?
(ie 'I didn't actually cut you, but I did cause you to overextend!')

?
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DanTrue said Dec 26, 2012 17:31:28
4) The spirit rules are by design a little vague, as they can be used for a greay many things. There is a huge thread on this forum about animism question, so I sugges you read through that.

5) Well, if the hafling was boosted to STR 60 why on earth would he use a dagger? But yes, a dagger coming with very high power can still fairly easily be bashed sideways out of the way. But, you might rule a dagger wielded by a STR 60 creature to have a larger SIZ than a normal dagger.

The combat system is build around ordinary combat and monsters. If you want something with precise and realistic formulas for everything, you might as well play Rolemaster. Calculating str for a weapon based on factors of the bearer, would be too cumbersome for me. To me it is much more important that the system is streamlined and fairly easy to understand, than it is extremely realistic and can take many weird edge cases into account... I will handle them as the GM - introducing mechanics that can handle all special cases always fails, and introduce maths which the munchkins can screw with and maximise.

6) Well, if two people just fail and fuck around in front of each other, none of them should gain any benefit. If we are fighting and I misjudge the distance and attack while being too far away (a fail) and you slip and fall... it'll just look funny. Unless you slipping (the fumble) results in you landing on your sword or accidentally throwing it into my head (the fumble table) then it will be pretty harmless.

- Dan
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PeteNash said Dec 26, 2012 19:40:57
1) The value in the table is wrong. It should be 9.

2) Yes, Yes, No* and Yes

* The MP cost of the miracle depends on its cult rank. See 'Cost of Requesting a Miracle' page 262.

3) Normally the miracle only consecrates the ground of an alter or temple. The example on page 278 is a special exception granted by the _god_ himself, i.e. its a special one-off blessing for the PC and will not continue beyond her forthcoming quest. It is there to demonstrate to GMs that they can apply these spells and miracles imaginatively and not bind themselves to the letter of the rules if it better suits their campaign world/setting.

4) "As far as I can tell for spirit-creatures, (if one is building an encounter, for example) the GM is supposed to SELECT the intensity level of the creature, and generate its POW from there. That seems a little deterministic to me, if one is generating random encounters, etc.?"

So? Your task as a GM is inherently deterministic, staging encounters, traps, poisons or skill checks at the right challenge level. Since spirits are themselves 'living magic' they are presented in a manner which allows a GM to judge whether the party can handle that Intensity of spirit with their own magic.

"Does the discussion of 'frequency of spirits' apply to specific types, ie are there the same distribution of wraiths intensity 0 vs 1 vs 2, etc as other spirits? Are there intensity 6 wraiths? The Animism section says a shaman can go 'searching' on the spirit plane for a spirit they want, but as I read it there's little description of how such a search would be handled?"

That is because it depends entirely on the game world or setting. What might be right for a Viking campaign with Lapp shamans might be totally out of kilter with the hsunchen of Glorantha; whether you talk about availability, location, Intensity level, or even disposition. Each and every setting should have (sometimes radically) different spirit worlds. Thus the rules are left a little loose so that you can model precisely what your campaign needs without contradicting the RAW.
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lawrence.whitaker said Dec 26, 2012 19:52:39
1) p86 (table of ENC values for armor) vs p88 "Armor Penalty to SR" section.
P86 says a full suit of plated mail is an 8SR penalty, but the formula and example given in the text p88 says that a full suit of plated mail is 6 enc per location * 7 locs = 42/5 (rounded up) = 9 SR penalty?


The table is incorrect. You've found a typo: nothing more. The description on page 88 is correct.

2) To me the text on describing the 'devotional pool' is a little vague; so as I understand it a theist
- CANNOT power miracles with anything BUT the MP in the devotional pool? So essentially they are hard-capped as to the number of miracles they can exhort by their POW (or a fraction thereof, depending on rank in the cult)

Correct

- CAN (depending on circumstances, I'm thinking specifically of various allied Gloranthan Lightbringer cults) be laymembers/initiates of multiple cults - this would mean a SEPARATE devotional pool for each, which can then each power miracles separately (but the sum total of all devotional pools can't > POW)


Correct

- cast spells at a base intensity/magnitude of their Devotion/10 for 1 magic point 'spend' out of the devotional pool.

No - see Pete's answer.

- I presume this pool is not relevant to spirit combat?


And, correct.

3) Consecrate on p 267 vs example on 278.
The spell says you can 'embed or bind miracles to the area' - in the example, however, the Priestess Consecrates Anathaym's breastplate with Shield. So a theist can Consecrate an OBJECT? The spell description is pretty clear that it just means Consecration of GROUND.

Yes, an object can be Consecrated (after all, a building, which is specifically mentioned in the spell description is nothing more than an object), and so the example - which clearly takes place within a consecrated temple - is accurate. The spell also says: "It may actually be cast almost anywhere providing some form of temporary altar or image of the deity is erected prior to casting."

4) As far as I can tell for spirit-creatures, (if one is building an encounter, for example) the GM is supposed to SELECT the intensity level of the creature, and generate its POW from there. That seems a little deterministic to me, if one is generating random encounters, etc.? Does the discussion of 'frequency of spirits' apply to specific types, ie are there the same distribution of wraiths intensity 0 vs 1 vs 2, etc as other spirits? Are there intensity 6 wraiths? The Animism section says a shaman can go 'searching' on the spirit plane for a spirit they want, but as I read it there's little description of how such a search would be handled?


This is purely for you, as GM, to decide. We haven't proscribed what exists in what frequency, strengths or numbers on the spirit plane because clearly it may be different from setting to setting and GM to GM.
[Last edited Dec 26, 2012 19:53:09]
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PeteNash said Dec 26, 2012 19:53:54
"This had me pondering - let's say you have a halfling with a dagger, who is somehow magically boosted in STR to 60. His damage bonus is now 2d6, and could technically (with a normal hit, and some luck) do 17 points of damage with a dagger....yet someone with a buckler could parry and all the damage is blocked with no damage/consequence to the parrying device?"

Dan had the right of this one, he gives good advice. A weapon attack is not just brute strength, but a question of weapon mass and leverage too. I personally wouldn't give any kind of consideration to the halfling with 60 STR, since it would still be just as easy for me to block the dagger with my shield. However, the halfling's blow has a decent chance of inflicting a knockback on me; and if it chose the correct Special Effect, that super strong dagger thrust could shatter my shield in a single blow.

"(Technically - using passive coverage over one's head and/or chest, for example - that means any shield could stop an unlimited number of bullets from, say, a .50 cal...?) "

That would depend on the material the shield was made of. We have a separate document concerning Firearms in our downloads section, which covers this particular circumstance.
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DanTrue said Dec 26, 2012 21:45:37
(Technically - using passive coverage over one's head and/or chest, for example - that means any shield could stop an unlimited number of bullets from, say, a .50 cal...?)


Well, I assume the point here is that cover from a passively blocking weapon, does not deteoriate the shield in any way. This is true. However, the shooter can choose the "Damage Weapon" SE, which will be easy as he is passively blocking and therefore not parrying. So, if staying in the realm of fantasy, if I were passively blocking with Hoplite shield (AP 6), all locations covered will benefit from 6 AP Cover.

However, I am being pummeled by Javelins from multiple goblin throwers, and if I move my shield I will likely be transfixed in an instant - the enemy has plenty of javelins.
Each Javelin do an average of 5 damage. My hoplite shield can passively block 4 locations, which I can double by crouching down behind the shield - so I can cover my whole body. I am panicked and out of options, so I crouch down and startpraying.

The goblins quickly realise that most of their javelins will harmlessly bounce of, since they do 5 damage and I am covered by 6 AP. It need not mean that all of these penetrate the shield and become stuck - some might simply hit angled and be reflected. However, when the goblins realise this, they begin to try to penetrate the shield and disregard hitting me when I pop my head out - in game terms, they start using the Damage Weapon SE when they gain an SE (which they do each time they succeed). Each time they do more than 6 damage, the remaining damage is instead applied to the shield. My shield has 15 HP, so it can take quite a punishment... but, it will begin to fall apart within minutes and then I am at the goblins mercy.

So, if you're in a modern campaign, we estimated a .50 cal to do some 4d10 in damage. So, a shield, even a metal one with AP 8, will quickly be turned to splinters by a barrage from a .50 cal by using the 'Damage Weapon' SE.

- Dan
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SteveLieb said Dec 27, 2012 21:46:42
Thanks for all the information!

More general 'approach' question:
As combat skills are handled as 'bundles' - how would you handle the development of a character or NPC who wanted to become the 'master' of a specific weapon?

Would you give the character the benefit of higher xp gain if they focus it on a specific weapon instead of the whole package?

Further, but along this vein, we have NPCs/monsters who have varying skills with various weapons, not really in sets.

Looking at Centaurs for example they'd certainly have SOME general weapon skills but if a campaign wanted them to have extremely high archery skills. So would you typically give them still the single 'general' weapons skill but bonuses for weapons they would specifically be good at, or would you give them two Combat Styles, one for "stuff they'd be ok at" and another for "stuff they're really good at"?

Just curious about which approach you'd use.
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PatHenry said Dec 27, 2012 22:02:39
how would you handle the development of a character or NPC who wanted to become the 'master' of a specific weapon?


Myself, I would look at developing a combat style trait that best simulates what the player or NPC wants to achieve with the weapon, then I would look to the section on Mysticism for additional special tuning.
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RangerDan said Dec 28, 2012 11:05:59
Regarding mastery of weapons, in my opinion for NPCs its easy. Your example on Centaurs, as the GM you can say *poof* Centaurs have Archery 95% and Melee 75%. Done.

As for PCs who want to become masters of a specific weapon, I personally would not separate their Combat Styles more than those of other players, nor look at bonus xp to compensate. I would likely go with what PatHenry said above, and create some weapon-specific combat style traits that the player can learn through training and the expenditure of Improvement Rolls. You could have the teachers of such techniques require minimal levels of skill (say 100%+) before they would consider parting with their secrets.

For example, a young Li Mu Bai knows Combat Style Wudan Sword-Fu (sword, staff, unarmed), and must develop it to over 125% before he can learn the techniques 'Steel Blossom' (use Flurry Special Effect with swords) and 'Dance of the Willow Tree' (parry missile weapons with swords), which would mark him as a true sword master.
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DanTrue said Dec 28, 2012 15:59:15
What RangerDan said. If you insist on parting the combat styles (i.e. he focusses wholly on the sword and refuses to use the staff which is also part of his combat style), you could split his existing combat style into two. The one with what he had before minus the sword, and one with only sword - this new combat style can then include the traits he learns as a master.

- Dan
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styopa1 said Jan 01, 2013 01:54:26
More ongoing questions, as a result of our first session of play:
5) Hunter, Miner, etc. careers are listed as commonly having the Folk Magic spell "Endurance" (p196) but I don't see such a spell listed. Spell omitted or typo on the common spells page?

6) Bladesharp spell is listed as "leaves the blade honed after the spell expires" - what does that mean?

7) Folk Magic casting Base is POW+CHA; If a spirit knows Folk Magic, is this also the way to calculate its Folk Magic ability? Or is there some sort of multiplier for higher-intensity spirits (sure, they have higher POW but it seems fairly feeble that each step in intensity only means +6% casting skill)?

8) How many action points do Spirits have? And their Strike Rank?

9) Spirit Combat: as I understand, a spirit attacking a non-spirit-world creature has to have discorporate to make the target 'attackable'. (This pulls them into the spirit world or makes them merely 'attackable' from the spirit world? - are they still in existence at all in the mundane world? Conscious? Distracted?) Once it succeeds at this, then that target is attackable as long as that combat goes on until one or the other disengages?

10) Spirit combat works (almost) identically to normal combat, does this include special effects? Which are choose-able in spirit combat and which aren't?

11) Folk Magic Healing says that when cast against Serious/Major wounds, nothing is healed but the wound is stabilized - Serious wounds ARE already stable, so I'm not sure what value this spell has against a Serious wound?

12) Duration of Sorcery: without enhancement, it's Casters POW in "Turns". (Clearly not "rounds" as "rounds" takes an actual investment of 1 point of shaping.) As I understand it from page 136 is a indeterminate amount of time based on opportunities to spend AP for a proactive action:
On his "turn" A spends an AP to attack B; B spends (or doesn't) to defend.
On his "turn" B spends an AP to attack A; A spends or doesn't to defend. They've each taken one "turn" at this point. This ends a 'cycle'
This simple example continues until they've both exhausted their AP at which point the round ends. However, for example, if A had used up his AP in the exchange above, and B still had an AP, B would then take another "turn" at the end of the round to do something nasty or whatever. So in this case, B would have had two "turns" and A only one. (Or, if B had dithered in his part of the cycle both times and survived without being special-effected, then he'd have TWO AP left to spend, and could thus take 2 more 'turns' for a total of 3 before the Round ends)
If I'm understanding this correctly, and using the above simple example, then, if Sorcerer A and B each have the SAME POW, A's spell is going to last at least 2x the rounds of B, because B has more AP? It seems odd that a sorcerer with more APs spells last a shorter duration?

13) if the spell duration is "turns" then, how long does it last if there's no combat going on?

14) if using tactical movement, would one require that figures share the same hex for a 'touch' melee attack, adjacent hexes for S/M/L reach attacks, and one hex apart for VL+ attacks? (and therefore anything under these values would be considered 'close'?)

15) re the rules for closing, I'm not sure what 'risk' there is for the closer except for whatever the difference is between his evade skill and combat style? If A is trying to close on B, A's choices are simple:
- stay at range, in which case he can be attacked but can't attack back.
- try to close, in which case it's either
-- evade vs evade, with no risk of harm but a chance of success
-- B's combat style vs A's evade, which (unless his evade is substantially lower than his combat style) isn't any worse danger than if he stayed at range, with the benefit that he'll automatically end up close if B doesn't gain a success on the attack (or kill A), which would be a huge advantage.

16) weapon styles and shields: as far as I can tell, if your combat style is longsword and shield, you're assumed to attack with the longsword and parry with the shield. However if your combat style is for longsword (only), there's no penalty for attacking and parrying with that same weapon? If you had the latter (longsword - only) combat style, and then picked up a shield ONLY to use it for passive blocking, as a GM I'd still rule that would be a substantially different combat technique and assess a pretty hefty penalty - probably formidable. Too punitive or reasonable in your view?

17) I'm still really muddled as far as how separate combats coexist and intermix. It's simple enough if it's just 2 characters duking it out. But what happens when it gets more complex? Say I have A1 (init 18) and A2 (init 12), vs B1 (init 16) and B2 (init 15) and B3 (init 12). They run into melee, with A1 fighting B3, and A2 fighting B2 and B1. A1's going to go first, sure.
Do I resolve ALL the cycles between A1 and B3 and conclude their round before going on to resolve the A2-B1-B2 round? Or do you just count down through strike ranks and not proceed to the next cycle until everyone's had their turn? So the Actions would resolve A1, B1, B2, and A2/B3 (simultaneously) = cycle 1?

Much appreciate all the clarifications, our first session went pretty well. Thanks again!

For anyone else new to this, I'd HIGHLY recommend reading the number of movement-threads here, as well as http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?635703-RuneQuest-6-Charge-Move-and-Action-Points/page14 (this runs to 16 pages - be warned, the 14 page lead-in takes a while to read, but it's actually helpful to see how a thing is misunderstood, before it's explained). It helped me a ton to 'get my head around' how AP are spent with movement.
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bluefenix42 said Jan 01, 2013 02:11:56
5) Typo. See the spell Vigor instead.

6) Nothing, really, except that it saves you the time and energy of sharpening it with a whetstone or whatever. It's a flavor thing.

7) As with all creatures and spirits that have skills, it is up to the GM to apply an additional bonus on top of the base percentage to make the creature skilled enough to do its job. Anything from 5% to 30% bonus could be appropriate. Reference page 319: "How Skilled Should Creatures Be".

8) As far as I know, this is unspecified and up to the GM to determine. For spirits that actually fight in physical combat, use their INS score, plus a suitably-determined DEX score, or perhaps just INSx2.

9 and 10) Don't ask me, I'm no animism expert.

11) Pretty much no use against Serious Wounds, correct, though it might help with the Bleed condition? I dunno.

12) Having a spell last POW number of Turns is from an optional sidebar. The default duration if you're not using that is POW in Minutes. Using Turns as a measurement of time does lead to that sort of strange behavior. I would say to house rule it, assume every round has the same number of Turns for all participants (3 is a good number), so a spell lasting 15 Turns lasts 5 Rounds instead.

13) Again, I'd assume 3 Turns = a round. A round is 5 seconds. So a 15-turn spell lasts 25 seconds.

14) When I run the tactical movement rules, I treat adjecent hexes as good enough for both touch and melee attacks (touch attacks just involve reaching in). I only give one-hex-away attacks to VL+ or long spears. But then, I don't use the reach rules very much - they add complications to combat that don't add enough to the fun for my taste.

15) I'm not sure - I'm not a fan of the reach rules to begin with, so I ignore them mostly.

16) That's fine. Your whole body's balance is going to change if you have an empty off-hand or a shield in your off-hand.

17) I just count down through the cycles for everyone at the same time. Why bother to divide it up into separate mini-combats? There's always the chance they will affect each other. What if B3 gets injured and drops, B2 decides to go cast a heal on him, and A1 heads over to help out A2 against B2? You need to be able to track ALL combatants relative to each other, even if they don't seem to be interacting much at the moment.
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styopa1 said Jan 01, 2013 02:15:48
Cool, thanks much!
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PeteNash said Jan 01, 2013 09:19:56
Bluefenix has very kindly answered most of the questions. So I'll just append a few clarifications.

8) How many action points do Spirits have? And their Strike Rank?

The calculation of Spirit Attributes is described on page 203.

9) Spirit Combat: as I understand, a spirit attacking a non-spirit-world creature has to have discorporate to make the target 'attackable'. (This pulls them into the spirit world or makes them merely 'attackable' from the spirit world? - are they still in existence at all in the mundane world? Conscious? Distracted?) Once it succeeds at this, then that target is attackable as long as that combat goes on until one or the other disengages?

No, their 'consciousness' has been pulled into the Spirit World. They are unaware of the material world and what is happening to their body. Once discorporated the victim is royally buggered until the spirit leaves them alone, they beat it in spirit combat, or the character knows the Trance skill.

10) Spirit combat works (almost) identically to normal combat, does this include special effects? Which are choose-able in spirit combat and which aren't?

No. As written Spirit Combat works as an Opposed Roll rather than a Differential Roll. You could of course run it as a Differential Roll contest with special effects, applying them with common sense (trying to mimic David Gemmell's Drenai spirit combat for instance)... but the rules were written to handle more abstract challenges such as a riddling competition, the Oldest Game, or even the shifting of nightmares back and forth (as preferred by Mr F. Krueger).

11) Folk Magic Healing says that when cast against Serious/Major wounds, nothing is healed but the wound is stabilized - Serious wounds ARE already stable, so I'm not sure what value this spell has against a Serious wound?

It stops Bleed effects.

15) re the rules for closing, I'm not sure what 'risk' there is for the closer except for whatever the difference is between his evade skill and combat style? If A is trying to close on B, A's choices are simple:

The primary 'risk' is when B decides to go for the hit. Not only are Evade skills usually lower than Combat Style skills, but it is treated as described on page 151 - an all or nothing result. I.e. if both A and B gain the same level of success, then the winner is whoever rolled higher. Since A is not parrying, if they lose the damage will automatically go through, which against a big, long weapon (the usual circumstance for closing) means a rather significant amount. Its generally best to use closing when passive blocking with a big shield. ;)
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